Dr. Phil clashed with a Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI) advocate, rejecting her advocacy of equality of outcome as "Marxism."

The host gathered multiple experts to discuss the impact of DEI on American culture on his "Dr. Phil Primetime" show. The guests included two Black men, pastor James Ward Jr. and York College of PA Professor Erec Smith, and one White woman, "HR leader" and DEI advocate Rachel Kargas.

Ward derided how DEI is inconsistently applied to society, asking, "Where are the Asian, Latino, and Hispanic basketball and football players? Where are the Black guys in the National Hockey League?" He went on to argue that America is experiencing a "new civil war" of ideologies where DEI advocates "pretend that they are God" by meddling in society.

Kargas defended DEI programs, referring to a popular graphic which portrays two images of three people of different heights trying to view a baseball game over a fence. In one image demonstrating "equality," each person has one box to stand on, with the tallest on a box they don't need and the shortest still not able to see over the fence. In the other image marked "equity," they each have as many boxes as they need to see over the fence - the shortest with two and the tallest with none.

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"When we're talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, we're talking about the fact that some demographics come to the table and have to overcome racism, unconscious bias, misogyny, and so how do we help level the playing field for everyone?" she said.

"Okay, so that means you're trying to create equality of outcome?" Dr. Phil asked, to which Kargas agreed. 

He turned to the pastor and said, "That's what I hear you saying about playing God," referring to Ward's earlier comment. 

Dr. Phil turned back to Kargas and asked, "How do you create equality of outcome when people aren't the same? You're right, some people are shorter, some people are taller looking over that fence, they can't both play in the NBA. You can't create equality of outcome. What gives a DEI program the right to come in and try and alter the nature of things to create equality of outcome? That's been tried, that didn't work, that was called Marxism."

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Kargas replied by saying she has worked in the recruiting space for 25 years, and that in networking, people tend "to refer the people that we know who are in our neighborhoods or who play golf with the CEO, and so you start to have a population in your organization that looks very much the same." She went on to argue that she is advocating "more intentional programs that reach a broader audience."

"All the more reason for merit!" Smith, who appeared on the show remotely, interjected. "If you apply to or stick to meritocracy, it doesn't matter whether somebody is playing golf with the CEO or not. It's about matching those values, those skills that are necessary for the job. Your argument proves that we do need meritocracy."